"Rare is the case that an employer actually needs an SSN. Indeed the Social Security Administration admits the numbers are actually their property and further that “no one needs an SSN to work in the United States.”
This latter fact isn't widely known, but NOT knowing and demanding an SSN where no authority to demand exists could get the employee demanding same, and his employer, involved in a civil action. Our recommendation is frankly to not push the SSN issue with employees. If an employee provides an SSN even on taxation forms it should only be done voluntarily and with NO adverse actions taken in case he refuses.
Form I-9: To our knowledge the only spot that asks for an actual SSN (and not an implied TIN) is on form I-9. However nothing in the law actually states the employee must provide the number. Because primarily government forms are intended for government employees, the majority of "spots for information" are considered voluntary when used by the general population NOT engaged in federal employment.
A twist: Indeed, the restrictions of public law regarding I-9 disclosures can actually RESTRICT the employer from using that number on ANY other form. In other words, do not assume you have the employee's permission to use that number on any other form or in any other way simply be virtue of its disclosure on Form I-9. You could possibly be in violation of the laws behind Form I-9!
Form W-4, Form W-2, Form W-3 and Form W-9:
Let's examine W-4 first. The title of the form identifies it as an "allowance" certificate. Its only purpose is as a permission slip to ALLOW the non-governmental employer to withhold, (take) some money from the employee's compensation on behalf of government. If you think that ALLOWANCE implies a voluntary-act, you are correct! If the form is voluntary for those outside governmental employment, then what of its content including the spot for a number? We repeat: The submission of a W-4 form or any other alternative AND ITS CONTENTS is considered a voluntary act!
Common sense will dictate that one cannot make demands on behalf of government for:
(1) a form signed under oath, with:
(2) a severe penalty of perjury jurat for non truth when:
(3) someone is simply exchanging labor for compensation and when:
(4) the person demanding is not an authorized withholding agent of government.
Hint: Were you given a badge or written delegation of authority?
BEWARE: The IRS has consistently confused these two definitions especially in their publications and forms. Unfortunately-- as employers on our distribution list have identified--the IRS does not come to the aid of employers relying on IRS publications; the IRS is under the Executive Branch of government and that branch does NOT make law.
Thus, non-governmental employers make a BIG mistake if they automatically convert or assume one number for the other without the expressed permission of the employee. It is better to err on the side of safety and to simply refuse to "do the work of government”: In a government-declared "system of voluntary compliance by the making of a return", the non-governmental employer is without authority to create a "taxpayer": that responsibility is left to another. Our recommendation is that you as an employer should NOT attempt to "create taxpayers" from non-governmental employees.
REMEMBER: NON-GOVERNMENTAL EMPLOYERS CAN ONLY REQUEST AND NOT DEMAND!
Remember that the SSN is not "owned" by the employee and further your "need" is only to satisfy his benefit if he chooses to participate in government Social Security insurance and the government withholding program. Thus, if an employee refuses to include an SSN on any government form, that right is his own. These forms are creations of government and their existence and content cannot be made mandatory outside those in government employment.
Further, you need not inquire of his reasons. His reasons might range from religious "mark" aspects to simply never applying for an SSN or to not wanting to be forced to make an oath under penalty. And you as an employer have NOTHING to fear from not including an SSN on any government form you submit to government.
The fine for EACH employee is $50 and this can be waived by simply including this statement on the "transmittal document" you send with Form W-2 and W-3: "I requested an SSN [or Form W4]. This non-federal employee did not provide the number [or Form W4]. To my knowledge he is not a federal employee or government "individual" nor does he engage in federal (26 USC) "trade or business".
No law compels a work eligible man or woman to submit a form W-4 or W-9 (or their equivalent), nor disclose an SSN as a condition of being hired or keeping one's job.
With the exception of an order from a court of competent jurisdiction issued by a duly qualified judge, no amounts can be lawfully taken from one's pay (for taxes, fees or other charges) without the worker's explicit, knowing, voluntary, written consent.
Section 7 of Public Law 93-579 provides that:
(a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose Social Security account number.
There is no law requiring you to obtain or use the Social Security Number. The Social Security System is a voluntary System. The Social Security Act does not require a person to have an SSN to live and work in the United States of America, nor does it require an SSN simply for the purpose of having one.
If there was a law for the SSN, why does a major food chain, Taco Bell, have "optional" printed by the SSN on their applications?
The IRS only requires the employer/payer to request the SSN. If the employee/payee refuses to give or doesn’t have an SSN, the employer sends an affidavit to the IRS stating that they requested the SSN and the employee refused, (Indemnification Letter). The penalties will not be assessed against the employer.
See also:
Nowlin vs. D.M.V. 53 Cal. App. 4th 1529 Apr. 2, 1997
For video, see - https://constitutionclub.ning.com/
Replies
When I try this after I secured a job they refuse me employment because I stand my ground and tell me I am too "complicated" and "argumentative" so then I lose the jobs as fast as I get them...
No employment for someone who stands up for their rights..........
But the truth is I have bigger crimes on my plate than this, like the covered up murder of my Mom, the abuse Dad went thru who is now being murdered on psychotropic drugs to shut him up and the theft of their estate for almost three fourths of a million dollars now and the reason for murders while they have refused her a headstone with her own money..... There is no word to describe this......
I just have to say this. It bewilders me after losing my retirement, fighting this for over 7 years and I am now being victimized with criminal charges to keep me isolated from Dad while he is dying because I won't shut up and keep fighting for justice, that anything can trump or even equal peoples resources of time over these unspeakable worse acts of inhumanity going on. But that is what the government BANKS on....
http://eldermurderabuseandexploitation.blogspot.com/2014/02/1-elder...
and I can't get help anywhere to stop this hell......
Rosanna,
You need to talk to Hartford, ASAP. I think I already gave you his number.
Rosanna,
SSN is a good conversation starter, but I think it is a moot point. Why would you want to be someone's slave? Even if you were to go on a crusade to prove a point and were hired by an employer with a federal tax id # without providing them a social security #, you would still be a voluntary slave. You have bigger fish to fry than that. I examined the link that you provided. You have suffered through many injustices and I want to encourage you to hang in there until you receive the relief that you are seeking. One of the purposes of the Great Writ is to determine if someone's custody is unlawful under the U.S. Constitution. Maybe the Ohio Supreme Court didn't think so, but "no court or judge of the United States has exclusive jurisdiction to order Petitioner released" as it says in the Writ.
Thank you for your encouragement but I guarantee you I am not on a crusade to fight SSN right now... Not to worry it is not in my top 10...
You know any good ideas about the more serious matters I am fighting please contact and share that with me.
On the 2nd Habeas I demanded they provide the warrant, complaint, summons whatever that keeps my Dad imprisoned and the judge will not produce it just dismisses my HC. He said guardianship is reason for imprisonment.......
Rosanna,
I just had a thought. Nobody is supposed to be confined unless they have committed a crime of violence. It is unconstitutional to confine anyone who has not engaged in a crime of violence, so if he hasn't, go after everyone using the UBC who has helped to put him there, and have their bonds jerked. Using this process you don't get to keep all the money, about 10%, the rest of it being returned to society by donation, and you are the owner of your own "Robin Hood Bank", enabling you to do just that: take from the criminals and return the majority back to the Public. I am donating a major chunk of mine to the Veteran's Hospital in Salt Lake, since they saved my life one time. What you are dealing with sounds like a multi-million $ deal. Could you make use of 10% of that? (over and above your expenses). Fill out the criminal complaints, get them notarized, served, sent to at least 5 bonding companies, wait 30 days for the criminals to report to the bonding companies (or loose their bonds) wait for 60 more days to be paid by the bonding company, and watch the bonding company collect collateral from the criminals! Keep in mind, you are also serving papers on the State Insurance Commissioner and others. They have to report to the bonding company also, or loose their bonds, and this includes city/state bonds as well! Ever heard of Writ of Mandamus in Quo Warranto? Check it out. That is the process that Carl Miller used to free Dr. Kevorkian from the criminals in government that were out to put him in jail for the rest of his life. The city was about to loose its 9-10 digit corporate city collateral, which would have eliminated the City of.... They decided they weren't as anxious to prosecute Kevorkian as they thought.
Google Carl Miller and his 3 videos on the Constitution.
Wayne, could you elaborate a bit on the criminal complaints you mentioned. I am wondering if they apply to the criminals that stole my home in an unlawful foreclosure (all parties involved; bank, court, attorneys, sheriffs deputies, security company, auction company, and high bidder). As well as the policy keepers/revenue agents attempting to restrict or remove my right to travel unencumbered. Thank you.
Yes they would be subject to it. Anybody who has to have a bond applies to it. I showed this program to a friend of mine in Oregon who is helping foreclosure victims, and as he sees it, the big drawback is getting the common victim to know enough to do it. If you know, or have the desire to learn, it would be very applicable. I need to go to church. I will contact you when I get back.
As I see it, the only person in your list that it may not apply to is the bidder, as you may not know who that person is. Either way, I'm not sure a bidder would apply unless it was an inside bidder operating through conspiracy.
The winning bidder is the guy (his well drilling company) that drilled my well in 2001. He was in Florida the day of the auction and it was the auctioneers wife taking his bid over the phone. This all seems a bit under handed to me. i have contacted him several times about retrieving the remainder of my personal belongings (that the bank claims i abandoned....NOT!) He has never responded, not even to say get lost. i am willing to learn. I have some base knowledge but i know i need more.
Unlikely to happen, more likely is that one would join Terry in the slammer for exactly the same charges.
As to a Quo Warranto, it's originally a writ, used to challenge the title to an office. Nothing much can be done with it really, but I am sure that Wayne can help us understand how such a writ can be used.
At the Federal level, the writ can only be applied to Federal Officers, in the DC Court.
As to the extraordinary writ of mandamus, again, it rarely works.
Funny how people hold such mythical beliefs about these writs. Id love to learn more about what cases were involved. I have seen claims that quo warranto was used but its lacking in details.
Let's explore Quo Warranto at the Federal Level:
Look at the rest of the statute to understand what requirements need to exist for jurisdiction and who can, under what circumstances proceed. It's an unlikely writ to succeed in these cases. But Wayne may explain otherwise.
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